Understanding Duality
I often find myself arguing with conservatives. Most of my friends and family steer clear of these lesser people realizing that that engaging them is pointless and depressing. Being an idiot, I talk to them. I am not sure why. Perhaps I want to change their mind or understand how they can be so stupid. Perhaps it is just like picking at a scab. One knows it will only hurt, but one is compelled to anyway.
A while back, I was arguing about why Bush’s tax cuts were a bad idea and the conservative I was talking to said, “You’re a hypocrite. You took Bush’s tax cut. If you thought it was a bad idea, you should have sent it back.”
Now, I don’t want to go into how utterly moronic that statement was too much. Anyone who has taken any game theory knows there is a difference between individual choice and collective choice. Additionally, claiming I should give back my tax cut is the equivalent of saying I should get out a shovel and dig an inch down if I think the community needs a well. There are situations where an individual’s actions and resources are useless towards an endeavor that is too large. Those actions resources are better used on something else.
Anyway, it occurred to me what that conservative and nearly all other conservatives lack- an understanding of the dual nature of society as both a collective and a composition of individuals. The conservative does not understand that the actions and hopes of the collective can vary from the actions and hopes of the individual.
Let’s look at second example. Conservatives love to place their “Support Our Troops” ribbons on their cars and love accusing people against the war of being heartless traitors who want our boys to die. They believe supporting the actions of the military as whole is equal to caring about troops as individuals. They fail to understand that one can be against the actions of military (the collective), but still care about the troops (the individual).
Another example- homosexuality. Conservatives basically believe that because they find homosexuality creepy and do not want to practice it, society should eradicate it. They want homosexuals to conform to the status quo and become heterosexuals. They fail to understand that one set of individuals can vary from another set of individuals yet still form a collective.
The conservative has a simplistic idea of how the world is. For them, Individual = Society = Nation = Government = Military. You’ll often hear a conservative boast about how “we” saved the French’s ass in World War II as if he had any significant connection to the event. To enjoy the victory, the conservative must be the collective. If he wants lower taxes, society should have lower taxes because he and society are one and the same. If he believes Texas is the greatest state, society should recognize that Texas is the greatest state because he and society and one and the same. If he likes meat, the status quo likes meat and vegetarians are wackos (by definition someone who is not “normal” or in line with society).
This works in reverse too. Because gay Americans exist, America is gay which means he is gay. This pains him because he doesn’t want to have sex with men and so he works to bash homosexual. If immigrants come into the country, American will be less white Christian and he will be less white Christian so he works to stop immigrations.
Additionally, if the collective chooses a path, the conservative individual usually blindly follows. If Fox News tells him to support Social Security privatization, then he supports it. If the church tells him to be against abortion, he will be. It is both an assimilating and assimilative existence.
Basically, conservatives want all individuals to be like the status quo of society because they do not understand the difference.
A while back, I was arguing about why Bush’s tax cuts were a bad idea and the conservative I was talking to said, “You’re a hypocrite. You took Bush’s tax cut. If you thought it was a bad idea, you should have sent it back.”
Now, I don’t want to go into how utterly moronic that statement was too much. Anyone who has taken any game theory knows there is a difference between individual choice and collective choice. Additionally, claiming I should give back my tax cut is the equivalent of saying I should get out a shovel and dig an inch down if I think the community needs a well. There are situations where an individual’s actions and resources are useless towards an endeavor that is too large. Those actions resources are better used on something else.
Anyway, it occurred to me what that conservative and nearly all other conservatives lack- an understanding of the dual nature of society as both a collective and a composition of individuals. The conservative does not understand that the actions and hopes of the collective can vary from the actions and hopes of the individual.
Let’s look at second example. Conservatives love to place their “Support Our Troops” ribbons on their cars and love accusing people against the war of being heartless traitors who want our boys to die. They believe supporting the actions of the military as whole is equal to caring about troops as individuals. They fail to understand that one can be against the actions of military (the collective), but still care about the troops (the individual).
Another example- homosexuality. Conservatives basically believe that because they find homosexuality creepy and do not want to practice it, society should eradicate it. They want homosexuals to conform to the status quo and become heterosexuals. They fail to understand that one set of individuals can vary from another set of individuals yet still form a collective.
The conservative has a simplistic idea of how the world is. For them, Individual = Society = Nation = Government = Military. You’ll often hear a conservative boast about how “we” saved the French’s ass in World War II as if he had any significant connection to the event. To enjoy the victory, the conservative must be the collective. If he wants lower taxes, society should have lower taxes because he and society are one and the same. If he believes Texas is the greatest state, society should recognize that Texas is the greatest state because he and society and one and the same. If he likes meat, the status quo likes meat and vegetarians are wackos (by definition someone who is not “normal” or in line with society).
This works in reverse too. Because gay Americans exist, America is gay which means he is gay. This pains him because he doesn’t want to have sex with men and so he works to bash homosexual. If immigrants come into the country, American will be less white Christian and he will be less white Christian so he works to stop immigrations.
Additionally, if the collective chooses a path, the conservative individual usually blindly follows. If Fox News tells him to support Social Security privatization, then he supports it. If the church tells him to be against abortion, he will be. It is both an assimilating and assimilative existence.
Basically, conservatives want all individuals to be like the status quo of society because they do not understand the difference.
7 Comments:
ahh, a very interesting post a.d. -
many of the points i agree with but the part i found most interesting was the characterization of the idea that if you disagree with a policy, like the bush tax cut, that you shouldn't take the tax cut, as moronic.
while intellectually it's hard to argue with the distinction between individual and collective choice, i still think there's something super cool to someone who would actually decide not to take this tax cut.
and taxes in general are an interesting area of law, it's perhaps one of the few areas where one can choose to not obey the law(though only if they want to pay more) or for most people they can choose to some extent their own interpretation of the law (since with deductions etc. there are so many ways a person can decide to fill out their tax return).
and to a larger extent, i think if done right i think it is good when people do connect their individual decisions with the collective good - not in a way where one thinks that all the collective need to think the same, but in positive ways like campaigning for candidates or paying more in taxes if you think you should.
long live moronic tax overpayments!
By DaveS, at 2:29 PM
Yatay, like nearly all conservatives, you seem to claim that you are logical, yet do not follow it.
"You're statement that "for them, Individual = Society = Nation..." sounds like something lifted straight from Marx (i.e., on Private Property and Communism)."
So what?
"The unenlightened liberal thinks that anyone that believes something different from him/her is hopelessly unscientific and idiotic."
Conservatives are unscientific and idiotic.
"Yet the unenlightened liberal condemns the conservative for exactly the same sin!"
No, liberals criticize conservatives for enforcing their backward ways on them. We don't care what they beleive as long as they remain powerless. Liberal homosexuals don't want conservative hetrosexuals to be gay yet conservative heteros want gays to be straight. Athiests don't want secularism in church yet Christians want prayer in school.
"What the unenlightened liberal may not realize, however, is that in our system of government, there is no difference between individual and collective choice."
So, you agree with my criticism on conservatives?
"When an American votes, she/he votes as an individual, based on her/his own interests. A person believes that abortion is illegal for the same reasons that a person believes abortion should be legal (i.e., they were taught by their parents or some other authority figure or thought about it and made a decision for themselves). The difference lies only in the end belief, which is based on complete subjectivity."
Sorry, but policy has objective results. Real people are affected. This neo-conservative subjectivity is crap. Creation is wrong, tax cuts don't necessarily help the economy, Fox News is crap. These are facts, not opinion. Democracy should be more than two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.
"When a person goes to vote, they will cast their vote for or against abortion rights based exclusively on their individual, subjective experience/judgment. A vote is simply a tally of opinions that our society has determined is a valid basis for constructing policy. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, but only with [collected] individual choice."
Individual choice is not God like neo-classical economists may have you think it is. There are pleanty of things that should remain illegal because we can't trust individual choice (i.e. nuclear weapons, slavery).
"Perhaps this whole piece is irony... if not, you need to recognize the disastrously flawed logic of saying conservatives are stupid for wanting all individuals to be like the status quo (i.e., them through their assimilating and assimilative existences)and then saying that they are stupid for believing something different from what you believe."
I never said they were stupid for not believing what I believe. Anyone that believed my word without questioning it would be as stupid as those who believe Fox News or the Bush Adminsitration.
By American Dilettante, at 3:47 PM
yatay:
With your abortion legislation example, I think you are describing something completely different than the Dilettante; two opposing idealologies, not individual vs collective gains.
Also, not every opinion that is different is "hopelessly unscientific and idiotic", but I wouldn't want the Dilettante to stop pointing out poor logic wherever it exists; otherwise, he's just be a Moral Relativist! I don't believe that the Dilettante is being a hypocrite by condemning xenophobia.
My take on the duality mentioned in this blog:
In the US, we have secured the God-given right to pursue happiness. In a capitalist society, whatever you are allowed to do, you are expected to do, if it benefits you, or you'll wind up at the bottom of the pile. Yet there are many actions that would benefit an individual at the expense to the collective good. So we agree to prevent individuals from doing the things that would make us all worse off, collectively.
I believe that one of main functions of government is to thwart these selfish actions. Individuals don't like giving their money to the government, but they like that taxes exist to fund our public goods - roads, parks, defense, courts of law, etc. We agree to give up our individual gain for the common good. Corporate earnings would be larger if we allowed industry to pollute more, but our GDP ("collective good") might shrink with increasing medical problems and the eventualy clean-up of highly contaminated sites. If government didn't stop business from doing everything they wanted, even the CEOs of those companies would live in a very unpleasant place before long.
By mizerock, at 5:03 PM
Yatay, you seem to want to lazily classify people and movements into your 7th grade political spectrum. In the real world, "left" and "right" don't exist. Elements of libertarianism exist in both modern progressives and conservatives (and it's not a simple social/economic devide).
And, yes, there are many aspects of conservativism that are similar to communism. Both demand assimilation. Both hate the minority.
Your basic problem, Yatah, is that you do not know what the progressive believe. We are not communist-lite and we are not for big government. Likewise, conservatives are not for small government nor are they anti-communist.
Additionally, you are forgetting that while there is majority rule, there are also minority rights. Democracy should not become hyper-democracy. The educated should lead when it is appropriate. The majority exists mainly to eject tyrants from office. At one time, the majority of Americans were against a number of positive things (banning slavery, teaching evolution, integrating school), but ethics, rights and science guided leaders to make the right decissions.
Why this blind love for majority rule?
By American Dilettante, at 4:45 PM
Ah, the tyranny of the majority. Yeah, it's a problem, especially when one coalition controls all three branches of power, circumventing those pesky checks and balances.
Please refer to Federalist Papers #51 and come back if you still have any questions.
By mizerock, at 5:00 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By Roberto Iza Valdés, at 11:10 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By Roberto Iza Valdés, at 5:28 PM
Post a Comment
<< Home